Nationalism in the east and west: updated
this is something that i decided to look up after a discussion w/ AL47. we wondered how nationalism differed from the east to the west and i realized i had seen the information somewhere before. it was probably on gnxp but i wanted to look the information up myself.
so here i’ve put the results of the world values survey up for selected nations from the east and west. i would’ve put all of them on one table, but our blog formatting cuts it off unfortunately.
| BASE=8512 Weight [with split ups] |
Country | |||||||
| Total | France | Great Britain | United States | Canada | Australia | Germany | ||
| How proud of nationality | Very proud | 52.1 % | 29.6 % | 54.0 % | 65.3 % | 69.9 % | 69.3 % | 21.8 % |
| Quite proud | 36.9 % | 58.4 % | 37.7 % | 26.6 % | 26.8 % | 26.8 % | 50.7 % | |
| Not very proud | 8.8 % | 9.6 % | 6.8 % | 7.3 % | 3.0 % | 3.2 % | 20.9 % | |
| Not at all proud | 2.2 % | 2.4 % | 1.5 % | 0.8 % | 0.3 % | 0.6 % | 6.7 % | |
| Total | 8512 (100%) | 961 (100%) | 961 (100%) | 1193 (100%) | 2094 (100%) | 1408 (100%) | 1894 (100%) | |
| BASE=8107 Weight [with split ups] |
Country | |||||||
| Total | Japan | South Korea | China | Taiwan | Viet Nam | Hong Kong | ||
| How proud of nationality | Very proud | 29.3 % | 22.2 % | 19.0 % | 21.3 % | 13.2 % | 80.9 % | 11.1 % |
| Quite proud | 45.2 % | 38.8 % | 69.6 % | 56.1 % | 47.2 % | 18.1 % | 40.1 % | |
| Not very proud | 22.0 % | 35.1 % | 10.1 % | 17.6 % | 29.4 % | 0.9 % | 48.8 % | |
| Not at all proud | 3.4 % | 3.8 % | 1.2 % | 5.0 % | 10.2 % | 0.1 % | - | |
| Total | 8107 (100%) | 1030 (100%) | 1200 (100%) | 1970 (100%) | 1226 (100%) | 1484 (100%) | 1197 (100%) | |
there has been concern over resurgent nationalism in the east in the past by pundits in the US. and yet when u look at the survey, for the most part, ppl in the west are much prouder of their nations than ppl in the east. the “very proud” and “not very proud” lines are the most interesting. the english speaking nations in particular are very proud of their nation, while the east asian nations except skorea, are significantly not very proud. even then, skorea’s percentage of very proud citizens are similar to the region. hk in particular isn’t very proud of their nation. maybe this is a byproduct of being subject to english and then chinese rule? vietnam, is basically an outlier in their proudness. not sure what’s going on w/ them. 99% of them are very or quite proud of their nation.
there are other great identity related questions, like: I see myself as citizen of [ASIA], [APEC], [ASEAN], [EU] but unfortunately they don’t have all the regional nations.
| BASE=5300 Weight [with split ups] |
Country | |||||
| Total | Australia | South Korea | China | Viet Nam | ||
| I see myself as citizen of [ASIA] | Strongly agree | 14.8 % | 4.7 % | 11.8 % | 14.8 % | 28.4 % |
| Agree | 54.7 % | 25.7 % | 63.7 % | 67.2 % | 62.6 % | |
| Disagree | 23.4 % | 48.5 % | 20.6 % | 15.5 % | 8.6 % | |
| Strongly disagree | 7.1 % | 21.1 % | 3.9 % | 2.5 % | 0.5 % | |
| Total | 5300 (100%) | 1358 (100%) | 1199 (100%) | 1469 (100%) | 1273 (100%) | |
| BASE=579 Weight [with split ups] |
Country | ||
| Total | Japan | ||
| I see myself as citizen of [APEC] | Strongly agree | 8.6 % | 8.6 % |
| Agree | 75.0 % | 75.0 % | |
| Disagree | 14.3 % | 14.3 % | |
| Strongly disagree | 2.1 % | 2.1 % | |
| Total | 579 (100%) | 579 (100%) | |
| BASE=4153 Weight [with split ups] |
Country | ||||
| Total | Sweden | Switzerland | Germany | ||
| I see myself as citizen of the [European Union] | Strongly agree | 14.0 % | 13.7 % | 21.6 % | 9.3 % |
| Agree | 45.1 % | 59.9 % | 50.9 % | 33.9 % | |
| Disagree | 28.8 % | 22.2 % | 21.6 % | 36.7 % | |
| Strongly disagree | 12.1 % | 4.3 % | 5.9 % | 20.1 % | |
| Total | 4153 (100%) | 992 (100%) | 1230 (100%) | 1931 (100%) | |
UPDATE: archon has a reasonable point in that he feels nationalism might not mean pride in nation. maybe nationalism is really the willingness of ppl in the nation to fight for it in war. WVS asked the respondents if they were willing to fight for their nation. here are the results:
| BASE=7847 Weight [with split ups] |
Country | |||||||
| Total | France | Great Britain | United States | Canada | Australia | Germany | ||
| Willingness to fight for country | No | 43.2 % | 38.9 % | 38.5 % | 36.9 % | 39.6 % | 35.6 % | 62.6 % |
| Yes | 56.8 % | 61.1 % | 61.5 % | 63.1 % | 60.4 % | 64.4 % | 37.4 % | |
| Total | 7847 (100%) | 857 (100%) | 854 (100%) | 1205 (100%) | 1904 (100%) | 1356 (100%) | 1671 (100%) | |
| BASE=7436 Weight [with split ups] |
Country | |||||||
| Total | Japan | South Korea | China | Taiwan | Viet Nam | Hong Kong | ||
| Willingness to fight for country | No | 25.2 % | 75.4 % | 27.3 % | 13.1 % | 13.5 % | 4.6 % | 48.1 % |
| Yes | 74.8 % | 24.6 % | 72.7 % | 86.9 % | 86.5 % | 95.4 % | 51.9 % | |
| Total | 7436 (100%) | 674 (100%) | 1191 (100%) | 1752 (100%) | 1218 (100%) | 1394 (100%) | 1207 (100%) | |
the results here show that the losers of WW2 are still showing some psychological scars. but yes, it does appear that some eastern ppls are more willing to fight for their country than western ppls.
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I have to say I am surprised at how high nationalism is in the West. I don’t know how to really interpret this data though. Why would only 8% in Japan ‘strongly agree’ with seeing themselves as citizens of APEC, for instance, but a whopping 75% just ‘agree’? I don’t understand the difference, it sounds so arbitrary.
I question the validity of the equivalence of pride in country from the data shown. After all, nation may mean markedly different things in the east and west. It could very well be that we of the US are proud of the US because the US is numba one, etc etc etc. Our might is resplendent, our per capita is high. Whereas a chinese person, when asked, may not feel proud of his country, because of endemic corruption, poor per capita, and whatever else they may feel disgruntled about at the moment. But pride in the country isn’t necessarily the same as nationalism. The chinese person could be “not proud” of China and still be strongly nationalistic, in that they are willing to put their lives down for ‘their country’ and whatever else nationalism requires.
It seems from history, that the pundits who fear resurgent nationalism in the east fear it primarily because of the common recurrent changes that happen after such nationalism occurs. For 300 years, the western world has reigned supreme, primarily driven by the power of nationalism. As the old eastern states fell, each fell because there wasn’t much nationalism, either due to the decline of decaying regimes, or long-standing civil wars. Old-style imperialism, and even the newer style democracies, are still driven by national interest. Nation states operate on a field that is wholly separated from the dictates of morality and righteousness. Consequently, a resurgent nationalist country is a threat to the status quo from the eyes of the currently dominant. Their leadership will no longer be as pliant to foreign demands for concessions. The populace will be more demanding of their government to act in their interest, and will often partake of this themselves. One has only to think of the periodically occurring “Buy American” or “Buy German” sentiments for the economic implications of this. Thus, by all rights, the pundits are right to be afraid of the ramifications of this change.
Japan and China are excellent examples. The part about Japan people in the west remember most is post-Meiji restoration Japan, where a unified and ultra-nationalist Japan threw itself into modernization. And as a result decided to go conquer the rest of the world after it finished doing so. China is the opposite. It’s nationalism was not backed up by modern industry, but through its pure nationalism it managed to fight an industrial Japan to a standstill on the forgotten far east front. I don’t think the Nationalists were entirely proud to be chinese, considering the horrible losses they were taking at a traditional vassal’s hands, but they stood and fought because they were chinese in china. Later on after the communists took over and eventually became more stable, the russians found they too were unable to control china as a client state, thus the Chicom/Soviet split.
Basically, I just don’t see “pride” as being a good marker of nationalism.
w/ regards to the citizens of APEC question, i’d interpret it as enthusiasm in a particular identity. basically, 8% of japanese embrace the idea of being citizens of a regional political construct. the 75% that just agree might just see it as a political truth w/ no enthusiasm. the last 16% are just lying to themselves.
absolutely agree with archon, I had the same thought in regards to “pride” once I saw the report. Asia and its confucius roots always valued responsibility and duty, which can be distinguished from “pride”.
A couple of points of interest:
As Pzed noted, vietnam is quite funny, perhaps its due to a lack of education. Jokes aside, Vietname is quite different from the other countries in term of its economic development, geographic region, and social development. And then you would have to factor in the historical effects of the vietnam war. I wonder how vietnam compares to other southeast asian countries like Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia (I expect Malaysia to be interesting too because of its racial tricodomy of Chinese, Malay, and Indian).
China is so big and diverse, granted every country is big and diverse, but most are slightly more homogeneous than China. I wonder where they took the reports for China, did they concentrate it in the villages, in the cities, in the north, the south, with the ethnic minorities, such & such. I would imagine different regions having different answers.
Hong Kong is interesting as well, very few are extremely proud, and the others are fairly evenly split between proud and not proud. It would seem on paper that they are suffering from an identity crisis on a national level, even in terms of willingness to go to war, they are pretty split down the middle. Seems to me like they are willing to go to war with themselves than with any other country. Reminds me of myself actually. If I were to break down my own psyche, I forsee similar results. Hong Kong may be a good model to study for us, and perhaps, thats the place where people like us would feel ultimately most at home.
like us, hong kong suffers from the clash between western culture and eastern culture. Like oil in water.
I find the correlation between current Japan and Germany to be interesting. While there is definitely post-war trauma at work for these two losing countries, what surprises me is how closely these two countries are trending together in the “will you fight for your country” (Ger 37%, Jpn 25%, roughly). This is mostly because of the post-war track each country took. Both nations, despite being bombed to hell and back, rebounded successfully in the post war period thanks to generous rebuilding and assistance programs from the Allies, but their approach to education about the atrocities committed during the full course of WW2 differ dramatically. Germany’s course was a full contrition policy of national and collective guilt, to the point where it is illegal to deny the holocaust and racist/fascist groups are heavily monitored by the state. Japan’s was roughly the opposite. While immediately post war it’s course roughly paralleled Germany’s, mostly due to the US occupation, by the 70s (or so), they had basically shrugged off their responsibility in WW2. The education of their people is the key point of difference here. How then to explain how German children, despite their bloody-imaged education, are more likely to emerge as patriotic citizens of their nation then Japanese children, who are exposed to a much less guilt-ridden account of the war? I suspect that it has something to do with the economic spending habits of the young and old in each country, and there might be an inverted correlation relationship between per capita wealth and consumption and willingness to fight; the old ‘decadence’ argument may hold some weight after all.
In my view, Japan is all about the duplexity of saving face vs. how they feel on the inside. In some ways its like that in all eastern asian countries, just more extreme in Japan. Look at the porn industry over there, its a stark contrast to the clean white shirt black tie image that japan likes to present itself in.
@archon, u don’t think that the japanese unwillingness to fight in wars is due to their pacifistic constitution and the fact that they’re the only ones that have experienced the aftermath of getting nuked?
I find it hard to believe fear of atomics play much of a role anymore, at least in determining attitudes towards conventional warfare. For both Japan and Germany, far more devastation was wrought through incendiary raids, although its also undeniable the effect of being the only country nuked. Still, I think the trauma effect has faded somewhat for the newer generations. Japan is probably one of the few countries in the world that willingly chooses not to have nuclear weapons but has the capability and knowledge base to essentially put one and its delivery system together as fast as they can assemble raw materials. The Pacifism Constitution probably has something to do with it, although efforts to overturn that are already underway, and indeed the JSDF is an army in all but name anyways, they just have funny dance routine recruitment commercials.